Cedrus sp.

Before I get discuss what cedar is, perhaps I'd better clarify what cedar isn't. Eastern red cedar isn't a Cedrus at all, it's a juniper - Juniperus virginiana (which, BTW, is the "cedar" used as fragrant red cedar woodwork). Eastern white cedar and Western red cedar aren't Cedrus either, they're arborvitae - Thuja occidentalis and Thuja plicata, respectively. Incense cedar, Calocedrus decurrens, is close, but no cigar. Japanese cedar is Cryptomeria japonica.

Confused yet? Now riddle me this.

When is a cedar not a cypress?

When it's a Chamaecyparis. Too add to all this wonderful mess, we have Chamaecyparis lawsoniana, the Port Orford cedar, and Chamaecyparis thyoides, the Western or Atlantic white cedar, which are actually considered false-cypresses (why not false-cedars?)

These distinctions, in the case of Cedrus, are mind-bogglingly important. You could probably confuse Chinese quince (Pseudocydonia sinensis) with Japanese quince (Chaenomeles japonica) for years with little mishap. But the watering requirements for Cedrus are very different than those for false- cypress. And confuse Cedrus with Thuja? Cedrus likes it warm and dry, and has a reputation for being a high-strung, finicky bonsai (although those that grow cedar in something close to its natural Mediterranean climate report great success). Thuja could probably be kicked the length of your yard and stuck in the freezer for a few days. Not, of course, that I recommend this:)

Probably the easiest way to keep things straight is to remember that Cedrus is a very small genera. There are only four kinds of cedar and they all have pointy needles like pines, spruces and firs (the Pinaceae). The impostors (except Cryptomeria) all have scaly, frondlike foliage when mature (family Cupressaceae). All true cedars originated in the Old World - the Mediterranean and the Himalayas. Cedars are large evergreen trees with grey bark - smooth at first, becoming rough with age - and erect, woody cones. Cedar wood has historically been important in commerce, and remains popular today for its fine scent.

I have a 30 years old ceder tree ( Cedrus libani) who lost overnight all of its needles. Can anyone give his professional opinion about such a problem.

Thanks

I have a bonsai for a week, and I want to know everything about how to take care a bonsai , but I do not know  the name a these tree, look like a pine to me. I don't want it to die. please help me., I have a book but I am confused.

I have a bonsai for a week, and I want to know everything about how to take care a bonsai , but I do not know  the name a these tree, look like a pine to me. I don't want it to die. please help me., I have a book but I am confused.

I have a bonsai for a week, and I want to know everything about how to take care a bonsai , but I do not know  the name a these tree, look like a pine to me. I don't want it to die. please help me., I have a book but I am confused.

I have a bonsai for a week, and I want to know everything about how to take care a bonsai , but I do not know  the name a these tree, look like a pine to me. I don't want it to die. please help me., I have a book but I am confused.

I am having problems with my cedrus deodora turning yellow.  I am in NorthEastern Arizona and am using this tree for landscaping.

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>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:20:43
>From: Brent Walston 

>Cedars! I love cedars. One of the very first plants I purchased for bonsai,
over fifteen years ago, was an Atlas Cedar, Cedrus atlantica. It is still
with me and now is a two foot tall four inch trunk two man cedar with well
developed foliage pads and very short needles. It will go to its first show
this year.
>
>Cedrus in general
>The cedar above has a nice deep green color typical of the species, but not
typical of what you find in nurseries. Unfortunately almost all the Cedrus
atlantica seedlings available today come from 'Glauca', so that what you get
is neither the powdery blue of 'Glauca', nor the deep green of the species,
but rather a pale blue green very much like C. deodara, but with shorter
needles than deodara. Seed from isolated trees has been very hard to get. I
got shot down again this year. I had some from a tree in town but kept it
too wet and lost it all, now I have to wait til next year. Seed from all the
cedars is very easy to germinate, but extremely sensitive to water and will
damp off in an instant. Soak the seed overnite in warm water, pour off the
water and dry the seed just until the husks become papery again, it should
not be wet to the touch. I put mine in the sun on paper towels and it takes
about fifteen minutes to reach this stage. Put it in a thin plastic bag with
no paper towels or other medium, just the seed alone, it has adequate
internal moisture. Fold over the top of the bag do not seal. Put in the
refrigerator at forty degrees F for thirty days or less if it begins to
sprout. Take it out of the fridge. As the radicals of  seeds emerge remove
them and plant  in a good well drained medium, regular bonsai soil works
well, lots of grit. Plant it by sticking the radical in the mix leaving the
bulk of the seed out of the soil, this will help reduce damping off. Usually
two or three planting sessions is necessary to plant all the seed since the
radicals emerge over about 2 weeks. At the end you can just stick the
ungerminated seeds in the mix by pushing them in point down with the seed
sticking in the air. Water very carefully, waiting for the surface of the
mix to dry before re-watering. Keep the humidity down, don't cover them with
those little domes or plastic covers, this will only invite fungal problems.
I have lost lots of cedar seed, this is all necessary, unless you want five
or six plants  out of a whole quarter pound packet. I plant directly into
cells (plug trays) to avoid disrupting the roots when transplanting. Once
the needles emerge they are pretty safe and easy to handle. This applies to
all cedar seed.
>
>Large trunked cedars are very hard to produce by any other means than the
'broken top' method. This involves growing out the tree as rapidly as
possible to about fifteen gallon size, a process that takes ten to fifteen
years. The low branches must be preserved during this process, since cedars,
like most needle conifers, are loathe to form new growth on old wood. Very
weak spindly branches can be coaxed back to big healthy major branches if
they are still alive. Such was the case of my big cedar. It was in a fifteen
gallon can when I bought it and was probably already ten to fifteen years
old. Nursery stock in fives or fifteens is just fine if the low branching is
still alive. Such material can usually be purchased for $25 to $65. This can
save you five to ten years.
>
>Next decide how tall you want your tree to be, six times the diameter of
the trunk is ideal, you can give yourself some leeway because it will
increase in diameter while in training. Then look for a likely spot to cut
the top off, I look for a set of close internodes around the height I want,
this will give a good apex. About six inches above this point make a forty
five degree angle cut on the BACK of the tree about halfway through. Grab
the top of the tree and break it, pulling it down and ripping the wood and
bark on the front of the tree. You can pull it down as far as you want
exposed wood to show, all the way to the crown if you like, but not into the
roots or rot will result. When pulled down to the right position twist and
break it as much as possible to get it free at this point, you may have to
do some cutting, but breaking it free looks more natural.
>
>At the cut portion of the top, split the wood vertically with branch
cutters and pull down bundles of fibers with pliers until no saw cut marks
are visible. The effect that you want is that of a lightening struck tree. I
grab the fibers with the pliers and roll the pliers down the trunk rather
than give a straight pull, you can exert much more force this way. All this
is done while still in the original can. If it is good health leave it in
this can while you do the branch selection and begin pad formation. Cedars
can stay in containers for very long periods of time. Mine was in the same
fifteen gallon can for over ten years. Once pad develop was nearly complete
I cut off about the bottom two thirds of the roots and put it in a large
bonsai training pot. All root work on cedars is best performed in spring
before the new white roots appear, usually Feb thru April depending on your
location.
>
>Cedrus libani
>Cedar of Lebanon has short needles of medium green with new growth of very
bright light green. It is slower growing than C. atlantica and C. deodara
and takes longer to form a decent trunk size, but the color is very good and
the needles are shorter.
>
>As far as I am concerned there is no finer cedar for small bonsai than C.
libani 'Green Prince'. This is a real gem, rather rare and hard to find, it
is extremely slow growing, reaching about eithteen inches in ten years. It
has short needles of a magnificent dark green almost black color, the
deepest green of any cedar. The new growth, like the species is lighter
green, making a superb contrast. It grows in a soft upward spiral and
practically makes bonsai by itself. I get more comments about the one in my
rock garden than other plant. It must be grafted properly for bonsai since
the understock will quickly out grow the scion and make a horrible union.
Look for low grafts that can be buried so that the union can be hidden in
the nebari. If it is high grafted forget it unless you are willing to air
layer it. Be prepared to pay big bucks for this rare dwarf.
>
>Cedrus deodara
>This cedar has little bonsai potential in my opinion. The needles are
longer and tend to grow along the stem rather in clusters like the other
cedars. It is rugged, easy to grow and faster growing than the others. It
has a very fibrous root system and is universally used as cedar understock.
If you find big specimen plants with potential, cheap, then go for it, but
as a long term project starting out with young plants I think the other
cedars are superior.
>
>Culture
>
>All cedars need full sun and sandy well drained mixes both as bonsai and
landscape plants, although deodara seems to thrive everywhere. They are not
particularly heavy feeders and suffer from few diseases. The biggest problem
with young plants is probably root rot from poor soil.
>
>Brent
>Evergreen Gardenworks
>bonsai@pacific.net 


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Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 19:42:30 -0700
From: Marty & Patty Weiser 

I have three of the four species of cedrus and like them.  I agree with most
of what Brent posted on them yesterday.

My favorite of the bunch is C. libani since it has a very nice tight
foliage.  Mine survived last winter, but lost most of the branch tips to
wind burn with our -32C (-25F) low.  However, it came back very strong this
spring.  I am making a raft from a 5 gal. tree that was nearly 1 m (39")
tall when I tilted it over a couple of years ago.

My next favorite is C. Atlantica of which I have two of the grafted blue
variety.  The blue of mine is fairly good and mine were 1 gal. trees with
1.3 cm (1/2") trunks that I cut the tops off of and am trying to encourage
side growth.  They did not fair as well last year and are coming back slowly
with one of the original trio dying.  I have had strong growth with these in
the past but lost them to miscellaneous care blunders so they are not fool
proof.

I agree that C. deodara is probably only a marginal tree for bonsai since
the needles are longish and somewhat sparse.  However, they might make some
interesting literati or a tall forest.

I have not had any luck with growing the cedars from seed.  However, I
normally have used natural stratification (plant them in pots outside for
the winter) which might have had an efeect.  I will have to try Brent's
suggestions when I next collect some C. deodara seed in Sacramento, CA.

Feel free to include this in the TOW FAQ.

Marty
Marty & Patty Weiser
Spokane, WA USA
weiser@eznet.com

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From: IrisCohen@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:19:23 -0400

[Comments about "orphan trees" snipped]

Chamaecyparis thyoides is Atlantic white cedar. It is found in 
the Northeast, mostly in swampy areas, close to its cousin Thuja 
occidentalis, the American arborvitae.
The closest northern relatives of the cedars are the larches. 
Although some true cedars may have fragrant wood, the fragrant 
red cedar which is used for cedar chests is Juniperus virginiana.
I don't find Cedrus libani fussy at all, probably because my growing
conditions tend to replicate a Mediterranean climate. Mine thrives 
on neglect. My only complaint about it is the terrible graft union 
on the trunk, which I have mentioned before. I finally put an air 
layer on it, to see if I can get the graft down near ground level.

=================================================================

Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 06:35:32 -0700
From: Brent Walston 

Sabrina

Good work,  Couldn't find a thing wrong, you even got right that C.
brevifolia is now considered a separate species, it was formerly 
listed as C. libani brevifolia. By the way, here in CA C. brevifolia 
grows almost as fast as C. atlantca. Thank you for your comments on 
what and what is not a cedar, again it points out the importance of 
botanical names. I was taken aback that Cedars are considered 
tempermental, since they grow like weeds here, but then this is a 
Mediterranean Climate region!

Brent
Evergreen Gardenworks
bonsai@pacific.net

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:58:20 -0400
From: Chris Cochrane 


Thank you Sabrina for all your recent hard work in our behalf.
Belatedly, I've a comment to add to your excellent Cedar TOW
posting.  You wrote (influenced, I gather from one of Brent's
excellent post) re' deodora cedar:

>Cedrus deodara: Deodar cedar, Indian cedar - the largest cedar,
>        it is reputed to grow up to 250 feet in Afghanistan.  It
>        has deep green 1 1/2 inch long needles which may turn
>        gray in hot, dry areas.  Best used only for large size
>        bonsai, it lacks the refinement of other cedars.Deodar cedar
>        has an unusual profile.  Although conical, it grows with a
>        "dropper leader," which means that the top of the tree tends 
>        to form a drooping arch (which would make it, I suppose,
>        "formal drooping syyle.")  The most tender cedar, zones
>        7-9.

At this year's IBC '96 artist exhibit, I questioned volunteers
who sat with trees and occasionally responded to questions from
visitors.  More than one volunteer commented that considerable
attention was directed to a cascade deodora cedar styled by Jim
Sullivan (from Maryland, USA).  One volunteer said that even
the shadow this tree cast had him enthralled.  I've seen this
tree in a fall show, as well, and it is magnificent.  At this
show it was gaining attention from other incredible trees
including the Shimpaku Juniper Kimura had styled in Memphis.

Jim's tree is very classical in design and has been in
training for 11 years.  As the trunk rolls around the very deep
pot it breaks into sharp angles of straight growth between
branches that each have foliage to the outside of the curve.
The pads of foliage each form erect flat reverse triangle
(somewhat broom-style?) pads that float above the primary
branches.  When Jim shows this tree (I've also seen it in a fall
display where it really stood out), the foliage pads are in
not only perfect position and incredibly vibrant color, but
they also are sized to beautifully balance their pot.

I think Jim is an American magician.  Taking a somewhat
difficult plant (he obtained it as a poor landscape specimen
from his neighbor), he has created one of the finest bonsai
I've yet to see.  I hear he is working on a dogwood, too-- in a
few years he'll have tamed another undoable.

I'll try to get a picture of Jim's tree to have scanned, if
he'll give permission.


--
Chris...[C. Cochrane, ccochran@freenet.vcu.edu, 
Richmond (VA) Bonsai Society]

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:27:47 -0400
From: Michael Persiano 


In a message dated 96-07-17 11:00:10 EDT, ccochran@FREENET.VCU.EDU (Chris
Cochrane) writes:

>>Cedrus deodara: Deodar cedar, Indian cedar - the largest cedar,
>>        it is reputed to grow up to 250 feet in Afghanistan.  It
>>        has deep green 1 1/2 inch long needles which may turn
>>        gray in hot, dry areas.  Best used only for large size
>>        bonsai, it lacks the refinement of other cedars.Deodar cedar
>>        has an unusual profile.  Although conical, it grows with a
>>        "dropper leader," which means that the top of the tree tends
>>        to form a drooping arch (which would make it, I suppose,
>>        "formal drooping syyle.")  The most tender cedar, zones
>>        7-9.

FYI:

I am wintering this cedar successfully in New Jersey.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
Zone 6

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Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 07:21:49 -0400
From: Michael Persiano 

In a message dated 96-07-18 00:04:00 EDT, BONSAII@AOL.COM (Ray Fuller)
writes:

>Wintering with any special procedure, (i.e. cold frame, green house, under
>your display benches, etc.).

Ray:

I am wintering using the procedure/method documented in Bonsai Today, Volume
39.

Cordially,

Michael Persiano

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